ST. LOUIS —
Senator Dick Durbin (D-Illinois) appeared on 'The Record' this week to discuss a number of issues, including his stance on the Israel-Gaza conflict, his calls for combining military funding for Ukraine and Israel into one legislative package, the Senate Judiciary Committee's ongoing oversight of the U.S. Supreme Court, and President Biden's diplomatic meeting with China's President Xi Jinping.
Below is a complete transcript of Durbin's interview with 'The Record' host Mark Maxwell as it aired on '5 On Your Side.'
Mark Maxwell: Senator, you recently said, "To walk away from Ukraine, to pull back now, would be unconscionable," and "a reflection of America no longer being the world leader it purports to be." Well, the spending plan you just passed through the Senate didn't send money to Israel or Ukraine. I want to ask you about the importance of combining those two. Missouri Senator Eric Schmitt was on with us recently and said the circumstances are very different in both of those countries. One of the circumstances is the wealth and economic output of those countries. Israel is quite wealthy. Just last year, The Economist ranked Israel the fourth most successful economy among developed countries. So why can't they afford their own weapons? Why do we have to both buy and supply them?
Sen. Dick Durbin: Well, I can tell you we've been supporting Israel since its creation and I want to continue to do that. Whether they are wealthy or not, they stand for a principle that I endorse. They were the victims of an October 7th of Hamas terrorist attack. Twelve hundred Israelis, innocent people, were killed. What I also believe is they need to be held to a standard of conduct when it comes to this defense of their homeland. And they've got to do everything in their power to keep innocent victims from being attacked during the process. I would disagree with Senator Schmitt. I believe that we should support Ukraine, too. It is not a coincidence that in the middle of this war that is going on between Israel and Hamas that the leaders of Hamas went to Moscow to meet with Vladimir Putin. Of all the places in the world, why did they go there? Because they're two of a kind: they're the kind of oppressive terrorist tactics that are taking advantage of democracies. The United States and NATO stands up for those countries. And we need to continue to.
Mark Maxwell: You were notably the first U.S. Senator to call for a ceasefire in Gaza if it could lead to a release of hostages there. At the same time you were saying that, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was saying a ceasefire would only serve to strengthen and embolden Hamas, likely resulting in the death of more Israelis. Was she wrong?
Sen. Dick Durbin: Well, I can just tell you, I disagree with her. I like her very much. But we've disagreed in the past. And my bottom line was this: If we could get a release of 240 hostages -- and I've met with these families, it's heartbreaking to hear the stories that they're going through, wondering if their loved ones are still alive -- if we could get their release and a mutual agreement to stop the hostilities that are killing innocent people, I would support that. Does it sound like a radical idea? I don't think so. It's been suggested by Bibi Netanyahu, the head of Israel, as well as other leaders. They call it different things. Some of them want to call it a pause, temporary cessation of hostilities. But the bottom line is you stop shooting at people long enough to get medicine and electricity and water into hospitals that are languishing with patients dying because of the circumstances.
Mark Maxwell: She's opened up to that idea in the weeks since.
The American policy in the Middle East is for this two-state solution in Israel. What evidence is there that the Netanyahu government or that Hamas wants a two-state solution?
Sen. Dick Durbin: There is no evidence that either of them want a two-state solution. But there also is pretty clear evidence that there's a need for new leadership if we're going to put an end to this constant battle and the bloodshed in the Middle East.
Mark Maxwell: I want to move on to the Judiciary Committee, where you chair there. The committee was just about to vote on issuing subpoenas to compel the testimony of Republican mega-donor Harlan Crow and conservative activist Leonard Leo, both of whom have taken a particular interest in Supreme Court justices. But you didn't. There was no vote on those subpoenas. Now, the Supreme Court has put out its ethics code. You've said that code falls short. Why not force the investigation itself? You've got the leverage. Do you feel this is a fight worth having?
Sen. Dick Durbin: It is. And we're going to continue. Everything is on the table, including subpoenas for the gentleman that you mentioned. What happened was when we were prepared to issue those subpoenas, which is done routinely by the Judiciary Committee, all of the Republicans on the committee gathered and filed 88 amendments that we had to vote on. We didn't have the time to get it done that day. We're going to return to it. We're not walking away from this responsibility. What the Supreme Court produced is totally inadequate. They have to restore the integrity of the court. And what they sent over to us this week as a sample is unacceptable.
Mark Maxwell: And quickly on China, the head of the Institute for Progress, that's a scientific and industrial think tank, shared examples recently of anti-American propaganda, often including violent rhetoric, spreading rapidly on TikTok and said this: "We would never have allowed the Soviet Union to own CBS, NBC, or ABC during the Cold War. But we let the Chinese Communist Party control the black box algorithm," he said, "for the most popular social media app in our country." President Biden just named a whole list of issues that he raised with President Xi, but TikTok wasn't on it. Why not? And how concerned are you about any influence foreign apps or weaponized A.I. might have in a presidential election year?
Sen. Dick Durbin: Well, I would have included in any agenda when I sat down with President Xi, because what we have to take into consideration is that Big Tech in so many different ways is becoming a dominant force in our society and our personal lives and the lives of our families and children. We've got to be extra careful what is broadcast and information that is collected and the disinformation that is disseminated. It is a serious charge, and I certainly am suspect of these Chinese operations. I would have included it in that agenda.
Mark Maxwell: Senator, thanks for your time.
Sen. Dick Durbin: Thank you.