JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. — Missouri Secretary of State Jay Ashcroft, the state's chief elections officer, drew national headlines over the weekend when he threatened to boot incumbent President Joe Biden from the 2024 ballot if the U.S. Supreme Court allows other states to remove former President Donald Trump for his efforts to obstruct the peaceful transfer of power.
Secretaries of state in Maine and Colorado have moved forward with plans to remove Trump from their presidential primary ballots, citing the Constitution's 14th Amendment that disqualifies people who engage in insurrection from seeking elected office.
"What has happened in Colorado & Maine is disgraceful & undermines our republic," Ashcroft wrote on the social media site X on Friday. "While I expect the Supreme Court to overturn this, if not, Secretaries of State will step in & ensure the new legal standard for Donald Trump applies equally to Joe Biden!"
Ashcroft told NBC News over the weekend that he could justify removing President Biden from the ballot because he has "let an invasion unstopped into our country from the border."
Ashcroft sought to clarify his position in an interview with KSDK Political Editor Mark Maxwell on Monday afternoon.
Ashcroft said his judgment on the issue hinges on a pending decision at the Supreme Court. For example, Ashcroft argued while he doesn't believe the insurrection clause in the 14th Amendment applies to a president, he also argued he would reluctantly use the same clause to disqualify President Biden, citing policy disagreements over border enforcement and immigration.
Ashcroft later said the courts could not disqualify Trump for insurrection without due process or the existence of a criminal conviction. Ashcroft, a lawyer, split with Trump's legal defense team and shot down their claims of executive immunity. Ashcroft said he believes the Constitution does allow for a former president to face criminal prosecution for acts committed while in office.
He would not say definitively whether he felt Biden's immigration policies have risen to an act of insurrection, which is a deliberate act to overthrow the government.
Below is a complete, unedited transcript of the interview with Secretary of State Jay Ashcroft. You can also watch the interview here:
Mark Maxwell: Mr. Secretary, good to have you with us. If you follow through on this threat and boot President Biden from the ballot, would you be doing so because the Constitution compels you? Or in pursuit of some political payback?
Jay Ashcroft: No. If I do anything with regard to my official offices, it's because of what the law says. Um, and what I have said in that tweet is that what Maine and Colorado did was terrible. It, I believe, is not following the law and that the Supreme Court needs to come in quickly and stop that from happening. My concern is if the Supreme Court somehow says that, 'No, that is the law of the land;' the Supreme Court OK's, uh, individuals being taken off of the ballot without due process, without being convicted of a crime, sometimes just on the whim of not even an elected secretary of state will lead to havoc. And if that is the rule that is the law of the land, that the Supreme Court upholds, then you know as well as I do whether we like the idea or not, that Republicans and Democrats will be held to the same standard.
Mark Maxwell: So you raise the standard there, which is interesting. Because it's true President Trump has not yet been convicted of a crime, nor was he convicted of the impeachment charges in the Senate. But if a criminal court does convict President Trump of a crime, does that change your answer?
Jay Ashcroft: Well, what we saw in Maine was an appointed, not even an elected secretary of state, not a judge, not even an attorney, someone who, for purely political partisan reasons, kicked the opposite party's potential Trump presidential nominee off the ballot. That's what happened. That cannot continue to happen. And if that is allowed by the United States Supreme Court, it's not just going to be one side that acts that way. If the United States Supreme Court says the U.S. Constitution allows secretaries of state to throw political, uh, people off the ballot without due process, then it will happen. And that is not good for this country.
Mark Maxwell: The due process is certainly a compelling part of this entire ongoing conversation. But that's not the reason these secretaries of state gave. They cited the Constitution and its 14th amendment. As you know, that ban on...
Jay Ashcroft: Well, it doesn't matter what reason they give, if they're lying or if they're not giving due process. I could tell you that, you know, I'm going to put the, the, the Easter Bunny on the ballot because I believe they that he really exists.
Mark Maxwell: Well...
Jay Ashcroft: That doesn't make it right just because I said it.
Mark Maxwell: I don't know if that's a helpful analogy. We can use facts, and we can talk about whether or not there was an act of insurrection. Do you believe President...
Jay Ashcroft: Let's talk about the 14th Amendment.
Mark Maxwell: Mhmm.
Jay Ashcroft: The 14th Amendment specifically excludes the office of president, which is the only office that Donald Trump has ever held.
Mark Maxwell: That's an argument that some lawyers have made because it's 'under...'
Jay Ashcroft: No, no, no, that's not an argument. Let's look at what it says. It says, um, there's the predicate that says these are the offices or things that you're not allowed to do.
Mark Maxwell: Here, I'll read it to you. It's: "No person shall be a senator or representative in Congress, or elector of president and vice president, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States..." It's that 'under' part it may not refer to the president. "Or under any state..."
Jay Ashcroft: It's not that section, actually. It's the next section.
Mark Maxwell: Uh, as a member. So it goes on to say "...Who, having previously taken an oath as a member of Congress or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any legislature or as an executive or judicial officer of any state to support the Constitution of the US, shall have engaged in insurrection, rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort.
Jay Ashcroft: Uh, you look at that middle section there. President Trump has never been a member of Congress. He's never been a member of any state legislature. He's never been an executive or judicial officer of any state. So the only way that applies to him is if he has took an oath as an officer of the United States.
Mark Maxwell: Well, he had... The first two words of this whole clause seem to clear it up to me. It's "No person shall be..." No person. He has been a person.
Jay Ashcroft: Unless they have done this.
Mark Maxwell: Right.
Jay Ashcroft: You cannot just read part of it. This, umm..
Mark Maxwell: Let's throw this whole thing out because it's kind of silly. You've already applied this same thing to President Biden. You've already said he's potentially committed an act of insurrection because he's, in your words, "letting an invasion unstopped into our country from the border." So you're already applying the same standard to President Biden.
Jay Ashcroft: What I have said is that individuals have said that what President Biden has done at the border is rebellion or insurrection. I have made no final determination. I think that what was done in Colorado and what was done in Maine was wrong. I do not think secretaries of state should make these decisions. What I said, though, in furtherance, was if the Supreme Court upholds that secretaries of state can and should make these decisions, which we saw in Maine, then if then the same lack of due process, the same lack of following the law will apply equally. I swore an oath to the United States Constitution, and I've always said I will follow the law and I will treat both sides under the same... -- Or, well, all sides, because more than two parties -- uh, equally. If this is the standard, then you will see secretaries of state apply that standard to people.
Mark Maxwell: But you're sort of arguing that...
Jay Ashcroft: Any reasonable person should not want these standards applied not only to political candidates, but if your children were ever, uh, being prosecuted, you sure wouldn't want them held to these standards.
Mark Maxwell: Well, I'll come back to say, I think the due process argument really does hold up, and perhaps we'll see more of that play out in the time to come. But you're sort of making the argument right now that two wrongs make a right. It's like saying, well, the other side...
Jay Ashcroft: No, what I'm saying is, it is wrong...
Mark Maxwell: The other side is... Let me just finish the question.
Jay Ashcroft: It's wrong right now.
Mark Maxwell: You're saying if the other side... If I can finish the question.
Jay Ashcroft: It's not wrong if the Supreme Court says it's the rule of the land.
Mark Maxwell: It sounds to me like you're saying if the other side rips the Constitution halfway, well, you have no choice. You don't want to do it, but you're going to pick up the Constitution and rip the rest of the page.
Jay Ashcroft: That would be true if I said I'm doing it right now. What I said was, we need the Supreme Court to step in and stop this.
Mark Maxwell: Do you agree right now that President Biden has committed an act of insurrection by lax policy at the border?
Jay Ashcroft: I believe that under the law, as I understand it right now, that is not a determination for me to make. And I don't want to make that determination. But that is up to the United States Supreme Court to make sure that everyone plays by the same rules. Look, if you're playing basketball, and you're probably a far better basketball player than I am, and the ref doesn't make the other team dribble the ball, you're not going to worry about dribbling it. We've seen this happen before in politics. When the U.S. Senate, when it was controlled by the Democrats, got rid of the filibuster for appellate court nominations. The Republicans took over and said, 'Now we're going to get rid of the filibuster for Supreme Court nominations.' This is a terrible path to be going down. We should not go down this path. No secretary of state should be able to snap their fingers and take anybody off the ballot. But if the court says that's your responsibility, I've got to follow that.
Mark Maxwell: Certainly, tit-for-tat political retribution depresses voters' belief...
Jay Ashcroft: It's not tit-for-tat political retribution.
Mark Maxwell: Well, what you're saying, what you're saying is, if it goes back and forth, like it did over the filibuster, like it did, then it starts to devolve and voters believe less and less in civic engagement. I took that to be your argument just a moment ago.
Jay Ashcroft: Uh, sort of.
Mark Maxwell: Your basketball analogy turns both ways, though, because if a team goes through an entire season, wins first place in the tournament, and goes to take their trophy, and then the fans of the losing team storm the stage and try to steal it, why would they play the game in the first place?
Jay Ashcroft: Well, that's exactly what the Democrats have done in Colorado and Maine.
Mark Maxwell: I was referring to January 6th. Let's refer to facts that were sworn under the into the record under oath. President Trump knew there was heavy-duty firepower in that mob. It was the mob he summoned. It was the mob he instructed to fight.
Jay Ashcroft: Okay, so where is this in the record?
Mark Maxwell: It was in Congressional Record from Cassidy Hutchinson, who was a close aide to President Trump while all this happened.
Jay Ashcroft: So this was part of the J6 Commission?
Mark Maxwell: It was also part of the Secret Service officers. Do you have any reason not to believe Secret Service officers? Uh, they told...
Jay Ashcroft: Do I have any reason not to believe federal agents? You betcha. I had to kick federal agents out of Cole County last year because they were trying to illegally go in to our polling places.
Mark Maxwell: They weren't the Secret Service, and they weren't President Trump's close aides. I want to go on with this, though, because this is part of the what we've seen under oath submitted in the record. The crowd was heavily armed, and President Trump told the Secret Service to take down the metal detectors, those metal detectors that would have prevented an armed mob from slipping undetected closer to the Capitol on the day that the Congress was to certify the peaceful transfer of power. So if you don't call...
Jay Ashcroft: Isn't this the same president that tried to get the National Guard out, and the Speaker of the House refused to do that.
Mark Maxwell: If you don't call that act aiding an insurrection, what do you call it?
Jay Ashcroft: Well, it... Was it aiding an insurrection then when Nancy Pelosi refused to call out the National Guard when the president wanted to do that? This is ridiculous.
Mark Maxwell: So you don't hold Donald Trump to the same standard you hold Nancy Pelosi to.
Jay Ashcroft: I haven't held any of them to any standard. I don't believe it's my role as Secretary of State to make that decision. I believe that's why we have courts, why we have due process, it's why we have rules of evidence, and why we allow, um, uh, cross-examination of witnesses, all of which really hasn't happened in this scenario. And that's why the Supreme Court needs to get involved and stop this.
Mark Maxwell: I think you could make the argument that presidents have an executive responsibility to guard against threats to the state, to the government. Perhaps that's what is at stake in this insurrection argument. We'll see all of that. My last question to you before we go is... Because it sounds like you're pointing to the criminal conviction side. If there was a conviction in the Senate which we know hadn't happened against Trump. It may still happen against Biden. We'll see if the House can get the impeachment act going. If one day there is a conviction against President Trump, the question is going to come down in that court. Can a former president face criminal liability for acts they committed as an executive? I know you're not wearing a robe, a black robe, right now, but if you were that judge, what say you? Can a former president face criminal convictions for actions he took as president?
Jay Ashcroft: You know, there are differences of opinion on this. Um, I do not believe that the US Constitution specifically precludes that. If you look at the impeachment clause, um, I believe that it still does allow, uh, potentially for criminal charges against someone.
Mark Maxwell: And if the Supreme Court says that a president can face criminal charges, will you support that ruling?
Jay Ashcroft: If the Supreme... Uh, what I've said from the beginning is I support the Supreme Court just saying what the Constitution says. I have no problem with what the Supreme Court has done. I need them to make that order so we stop what's going on in Maine and Colorado.
Mark Maxwell: All right, Mr. Secretary, thanks for your time.
Jay Ashcroft: Thank you.